What's Happening?

[Jerhico]

Lately I've been getting a sinking feeling about EQ2.

I've played since beta and have been pretty much on the same character since release. I've had a few alts, but they are still on Isle of Refuge.

Granted, the bulk of my MMORPG experience is in EQ1, with dabblings in SWG and Asheron's Call 2, but something has been tugging at the edge of my mind almost from day one.

From beta, I knew EQ2 would have a hard time capturing the hardcore gamer. There just wasn't enough raid-level content or reward for those who wanted to push through to that level of the game. This didn't concern me, particularly at first, since I had no intention of doing the "uber" thing again.

Nonetheless, I watched with mingled fascination and amusement as a some hardcore folks rolled up characters anyway and then rushed to level 50.

Most of them are gone now.

But then I noticed a more alarming trend: Many of the more casual players reached level 50 in the past month or two and they also have stopped logging in. In my guild (which is hardly uber) only one of our level 50's even logs in anymore.

Guilds rarely seem to grow much in EQ2 because nearly everybody is in one, and as a guild recruiter I can say that it is exceptionally difficult to find unattached, nice, or even just talented players. It's not that there's any shortage of new folks, but rather with very little to lust after at the end-game, not many people "guild shop" and are often content to stay in a stagnant or "comfortable" guild rather than expand their horizons.

The EQ2 community has failed to come together in a meaningful way. With EQ1, there was Allakhazam, EQAtlas, and a number of authoritative class sites, such as Steel Warrior, Monkly-Business, and Graffe's. I realize there is gamepressure.com and ogaming, but...They are shadows of their predecessors.

If this is any indicator, there just aren't a lot of people who are passionate about their characters. Most sites can go without any meaningful posts for days at a time. There is no sense of class community...At least with brawlers.

Other signs that worry me are that so many of the good UI modders at eq2interface.com have quit or given up. I can understand that when the UI changes in a big way every two weeks that it might get frustrating, but I have never gotten the sense that this is why they are leaving. They mostly don't give reasons, and just say they're done.

In my opinion, the game has gotten much better in the months since release. My wife and I are level 40 and exploring the Bloodlines Chronicles which we found to be a lot of fun. We did the precursor quests for the Splitpaw Saga last night, which while incomplete was also intriguing and entertaining...A glimpse of what future updates to the game will bring.

Nonetheless, the lack of community cohesiveness and the failure of the game to inspire and retain good and intelligent people is causing me increasing despair.

What has gone wrong? I realize that other games matured slowly over time as did their communities, but I feel something unraveling here. Does anyone else see it?

[Deathbane27]

I'm not going to pretend I can see the rest of the community, as I'm inherently antisocial. But I can tell you why I left.

I don't know about the other UI modders, but my leaving actually didn't have anything to do with the UI modding itself.

I played several characters. Each of them was fun until I finished the level 20-25 armor quests. After that... it somehow dried up. There weren't any interesting quests, even when I did sit through the voice acting on the dialogue. And the server population had passed me, so I could almost NEVER find a group.

Then SOE started messing with the game controls and being jerks about it: changing the defaults, and claiming the external camera recenter key breaking never occured. That was that. My account was cancelled anyway, but now I've basically decided I'm done with MMORPGs. And it will stay that way as long as I'm working the night shift, which I pretty much have been in every job for the last 2 years.

So, that's my story. Maybe you'll be able to find a way to connect the dots once there are enough.

[vansboarder]

You gotta remember that EQ Live is where its at after 6 years. In 6 years im sure there will be plenty of website and class communities. Give SOE time to relase expansions and im sure it will get better.

[Nitefang]

yeah - I feel it too, my main is almost 36 now, and for me the "fun factor" is drying up - I played last night for the first time in a couple weeks, and only stayed on a couple hours before I simply got bored... its still fun, and I havent given up completely just yet, but I had already decided to quit EQ2 once some of the other games in development come out next year, but now I'm not so sure that I'll be interested for that long.

its funny, but in EQ1, I didn't start modding till I'd played for over 2 years - once the game experience started to get boring, I modded, and that kept me interested for another year... with EQ2, I noticed that I started moding after only 3 months playtime, that tells me something about the game right there.

I cant really put my finger on a single overriding reason - but for all its groundbreaking ideas - its still lacking something for me... maybe its roleplayers that wont roleplay on a roleplay server, a computer that wont let me see all the eye candy thats there, or just the way that Sony seems to do business - I'm not sure why... I just know I wont stay long term. there are other games out there that look really good and I'm sure one of them will be what I want a MMORPG to be

[PigLickJF]

Personally, I think it's because this game caters much more to casual gamers than EQ1, or most other MMORPGs. Soloing is not only possible, but pretty damn easy for most classes, and grouping is even easier.

As much as people don't want to admit it, it's the hard-core gamers that push the game, the developers, and the community to new heights. Without much for them to do in this game, and without a lot of real challenge for anyone, there's not as much drive or passion on the part of anyone to really invest themselves into the game like with EQ1.

Now don't get me wrong, making the game more playable for casual players is a great goal, especially as I'm a casual player myself. But I think in their quest (haha, get it?) to do so, they made the game too easy and in some ways too convenient and it just doesn't grab onto you and dig itself in like EQ1 et al did in the past.

PigLick

[Clink]

I think eq2 is doing fine and will only get better. The market has been flooded with games eq2,wow,matrix,gw,ffxi,ao,sor,daoc,ac,ac2 etc... IMO eq2 has much more long term staying power than most of the ones I mentioned. There are alot of changes planned and laready haqppening for eq2 on the test server. A almost total reworking of the combat,spells,arts system. I think the future looks bright

I feel the reason the server numbers are down is because of the flood of new games. People are curious and will try out the new comers and I would imagine alot are like me and tend to cancel one before trying another. They'll be back though EQ2 still has that "thing" that none of the others are even close to having.

Im glad eq2 is so casual friendly. Nearly every other game on the markets caters to the hardcore, uber guild, raid oriented. The casual player has alwasy been considered last and I think SOE has found a dedicated player base of people who dont gank, zerg, grief, or play for 12 hours a day and I hope they keep this a game for such mature easy going people.

[Laffs]

It hasnt got the essence of life that EQ live had......

Most part there is no real fear factor.... Remember coming up with inventive ways to get past the guards in say Ogglok or seeing how many guards you could kill and how far you could get into Q with an evil toon just for the hell of it.... Running to the zone when the Dragoon's went on patrol in OT..... The first time you entered the plane of fear and the whole raid go wipped by a bunch of fire imps lol... The pain and frustration of trying to get your corpse back from a real bad spot coz your necro friend is not online, You know you gotta get it back soon as all your best equipment is on the body, Hacking your way through a bunch of nasty gnolls in splitpaw with just a rusty dagger that you got of a wussy skellie to try and get your stuff back...... Knowing that you just cant run through a zone... spending hours trying to work out how the hell to get back out of GE because your group all had a gate potion and you forgot your's lmao

Its all stuff like that, that gives Eq live LIFE......

EQ2... Well I can run around FP on a good toon and worst that happens is I get zoned back to the commonlands.... cant attack the guards... but hey I can run through a whole bunch of Orc's creating the biggest train in history with no fear as I know they will all stop chaseing me real soon...... Yawn... If I die its no big deal as me still got all my stuff no real hurry to get a shard back.....

To me it is all this that has taken the risk factor away from the game...... Also the ability to slaughter another player that is peeing you right off.....

I think it is all those things that has taken the fun out of what is a damn good game. To me that is what is missing the fear factor.

[Seggo]

The lack of community hits the nail onn the head!

One thing I have noticed with EQ2 is that all the things they tweaked to reduce KSing also reduced some of the social aspects of the game e.g The number of times I went into newbie zone in EQ1 and randomly buffed ppl with my druid or handed out items I no longer used to strangers gave that warm glow inside and started quite a few friendships.

I think they need to work on the social aspect of the game now as really all the EQ's boil down to are interactive chatrooms.

I used to ask myself would I play EQ if it was just an RPG and think the answer is no. It is the people that bring me back time and again, whether in the game or in the forums.

Maybe the pokemon style Arena Champions will help kickstart it.

I suppose everyone will think this is all just soppy but I know for all their bad points I have SOE to thank for the opportunity to meet some of best and most caring people in the world that I would never have met otherwise.

Seggo

[Jerhico]

Yes, the fact that EQ1 is getting long in the tooth does occur to me. There has been a lot more time to work toward building a solid community.

The conclusion I'm becoming increasingly drawn to is that in giving people what they asked for, Sony may have killed the game.

It may be that some (or most) of us are gluttons for punishment, but at least at higher levels in EQ1, it wasn't so much the competition versus the environment that stimulated aggressive play, it was competition against other guilds and / or people.

I can't remember how many times I was forming my guild up for a raid and watching another guild zoning in warily while trying to get us organized to move in our our once-a-week god spawn and thinking to myself "This is piss-poor game design...I wish this plane was instanced!"

I remember camping Raster for my epic and finally getting him to pop and having a level 60 monk jump in after the fight had started and KSing me. I was so bitterly angry, I couldn't stop thinking about how stupid it was that Sony hadn't locked encounters.

I remember cursing at my monitor after being trained into oblivion by some ignorant ass in Chardok didn't have the courtesy to announce it...And then being that ignorant ass later in Karnor's Castle and chuckling evilly to myself as the unfortunates who had AFK'd at the zoneline did corpse recovery.

The point is simply this: While EQ2 is fun...I'm still enjoying it, as is my wife...It's not particularly challenging. The fact that when I play, I always have a partner to play with probably has gone a long way toward mitigating boredom for me. I can see how a person who primarily solos and just groups when they need help with a particular mob would feel like the world is empty. Considering so many quest mobs are triggered, this eliminates the sense of urgency one feels when they happen to catch their quest mob up in a competitive world.

The net effect of having to compete with others for so little, I think, is that you stop valuing to some degree what you have. I think maybe Sony banked on the fact that time involved and the intricacy of quests would keep people fixated, but it may just be a testament to our society that we're only having fun when we can define our characters in a way (through gear and progression) that distinguishes itself greatly from other players. (My toon's better equipped than yours. Nyah nyah!).

Now I'm not saying there aren't benefits to guilding or having a group of solid hardcore players, but those benefits are minimal. When I look at a monk that's in T5 gear and in a powerful guild, he has a few more fabled items than me...Hell, he may be ALL in fabled gear, but it isnt' *that* much better.

I'm also not saying that spawn camping and difficult encounters don't still exist.

But, when I look at another monk at my level, I can expect to see essentially the same thing: Tailored Augmented Armor, rare crafted Tier 5 weapons (doesn't matter which, they all deal out about the same DPS) or maybe a fabled one, fishbone earring, FBSS, Legendary Journeyman's Boots, a pair of rare fright dolls, and possibly some rare crafted imbued rings.

My suspicion is that EQ2 is not doomed to go the way of SWG. The developers ARE cranking out tons of great new content, and they do a tremendous job of fixing Things That Are Broke(tm).

But more than that, I think they will begin to see that what buttered their bread in EQ1 was addiction. Addiction was fostered by making the best items drop off difficult encounters that lived in keyed zones that other guilds competed for. Addiction was promoted by making XP grinding the primary method of advancement. Addiction was encouraged by making it so easy to fail that when you did, you would get mad at yourself and commit yourself to try harder and to be more focused next time.

The reason EQ1 was so successful in the long run was that it was Darwinian in nature. If you didn't play your character well and you weren't ambitious, you would spend your whole virtual life looking at what others had and what you had no chance of getting. If you were driven, had unlimited time, were cutthroat, or just so nice everyone wanted to give you a break, you could filter your way to the top echelon of guilds and thus content / loot.

It's a tough call...I know the tendency is to think "you can never make everyone happy." Or that the players just complain to complain. In fairness, there is some of that.

I think Sony's released an outstanding solo or small group game...I think there's a lot of work to do to make Norrath Redux a place people will skip meals for and neglect family / friends to be in.

Not sure that's a bad thing.

[Xarshaz]

EQ2 is lacking raid content and raid gear. Every toon looks the same and it's a shame. There should be great, game changing gear available thru raiding. The non-raiders always complained about that, but it helped the game. Having friction between raiders and non-raiders MADE the game.

EQ2 has no friction. There's no training, no KSing. It's too play nice. It's too easy. I feel like I can sleep thru it.

[Pure]

Many of the reasons indicated here for why EQ was so enjoyable to many is why I like EQ2 that much more.

There was no reason why a person that basically had almost no RL could have that uBer gear when a casual player that couldn't stay up all hours of the night just to maybe get a slight possibility of getting that uBer gear.
I disliked all the time forming Raids in EQ and dealing with the sizes of the raids.
Many times when playing along side my son and going to some raids items would be handed out and it was based on Raid points and such, and always sided with the hardcore players. Nevermind the 13 year old that stayed up late to try and enjoy a raid with his dad, and had lower end gear then most attending.

EQ=Hardcore
EQ2=Casual, and yet competitive for guilds

EQ2 is continually offering more content, and in time I see many spells/abilities worked out. As more expansions/extra zones are added the look of many characters will change.

I also enjoy not having to do corpse runs (No more finding high-level Clerics/Necros)
Being able to outrun many NPC's is one negative I see. This should be more challenging and not as laxed.

I too have seen many leave EQ2 to play other games. I played Beta and at release the guild I was in had 200+ members and we rated top 5 on server for a while then all of the sudden the numbers dwendled down to nothing.
In turn, many that are still around are seeking previous friendships and going to other guilds that by chance have lasted the times even though the game has not been out all that long.

All I can hope for is many come back to EQ2 and they continually strive at SOE to keep the subscriber base enough to go on for the years to come as EQ has.

[Lange]

I think it's important to understand that while it is the twilight of EQ2's initial release, the game is actually well-poised for its first expansion and beyond. Remember how little content there was in EQ1 when it was only a year old?

The reason people kept playing that game, then, was because there was nothing else. Now, there are a lot of options with the promise of more in the future.

Unfortunately, this has hurt all MMOs. More people are playing MMOs now than ever before but each individual game has a smaller share of that than Everquest did, originally. In short, the hay-day of EQ1 is over and it will never return.

SOE is still in a bit of denial over this when it comes to EQ2. They accepted it in EQ1 and merged the servers to accomodate change. Their highest hopes for EQ2 will likely never be realized though. Neither will WoW's - nor Vanguard's. Nor any of the players who gripe about how bad they think EQ2 is and move to WoW. I bet if you surveyed those players, most of them end up quitting MMOs altogether or perpetually hopping from one MMO to another because of how 'bad' each of them are. But, as for the companies, they need to realize that they'll never again have 100% of the market share (or even close to that) even if their game really is better than all of the others.

I agree with the poster who said that EQ is for the hardcore gamer and EQ2 is for the more casual player. In its current state, this is true. However, EQ2 is going to see a LOT of new content coming in - remember that Naggy and Vox were the ONLY raid mobs in EQ1 a year from release. EQ2 has already gone way beyond that. Expect the expansions to bring even more. Sure, raiding is limited to 24 people but that doesn't mean raiding won't improve. It will. It'll just take some time - just like it did in EQ1.

IMPO, SOE has to do two things to really ensure the long-term success of EQ2.
1. provide a guild-merger option. It was an honest mistake, but automating the guild creation process has turned out to be the stupidest thing SOE ever did. Everyone is guilded and recruitment is all but impossible. Your only option is to poach from other guilds. At this point, the least SOE can do is provide a merge option so that guilds can do it openly and honestly by discussing it with one another.
2. (and this is the biggie) - STOP MAKING MORE SERVERS! IMO, the game is too small as it is. Sure it's nice to have less competition for quest mobs but you need people to recruit into your guild, you need people to group with.. you need people to raid with. You just plain need people. I'm on Permafrost, one of the most populated servers, and it amazes me that occasionally, late at night (say 4am EST) not one person of any level is LFG. That's astounding - and it would have never happened in EQ1.

[Lonewolf_19]

This is my first post on this form and, honestly, one of the few threads I've read completely through in a long time. I sympathize with much of what has already been said mainly because I too have been an avid RPG PNP turned MMORG player.

To tell you the truth, EQ2 has been the closest experience to my fond memorize as a (younger) PNP enthusiast. In my opinion, what's great about EQ2 is not what 'uber' items you can acquire, or how many platinum you can brag about, or even what level you have achieved. My fondest memories in EQ2 have always been with my guildies or grouping with my actual friends who happen to play EQ2. If it were not for playing with my friends, what would be the point of playing MMORG? If your actions don't impact 'real' people than you're basically playing a computer game with amazing AI (i.e. human players that are essential nonames).

In short, if your tired of EQ2, have no motivation for questing or looting, then talk to a friend or two and have them join you in EQ2. I think you'll find new found enjoyment.

[Jerhico]

That's a good point, Lone...

I actually met my wife in EQ1. I was surprised to find there are actually attractive women gaming.

At the same time, we both let EQ1 become the main priority in our lives and when we got together we agreed to keep things in perspective, never play without the other, and never to join a raiding guild.

In doing so, we've progressed quite slowly, but we haven't reached the point many of our friends and guildmates have in rushing to 50 and suddenly being bored.

We are former hardcore players who are grateful for the more casual experience EQ2 offers.

But the fact remains that most people who play don't have the luxury of sitting right next to the person they are best friends with and who have the single shared goal of time well spent doing fun things together.

There have been a lot of great points brought up in this thread. I anticipate a lot of the prodigal guildmates will return to play around with Splitpaw, and even more will come back to investigate the expansion.

I believe the game is sustainable as it sits...The only major threat I see to the game in the near term is the combat redesign. If they pull it off, EQ2 will be a better game than it is now. If they mess it up, it will disgruntle a lot of people. Think Star Wars Galaxies...

I just watched the Desert of Flames movie on the SoE site, and thought that it looked very interesting.

I agree with Lange's point on automated guild creation and also on the option for a guild merger function.

EQ1 had a way of making even quiet people socialize to some degree. Largely, perhaps, because there were so many targets of opportunity that simply could not be soloed. Loot and quest updates make strange bedfellows.

I would personally like to see content that rewards collaboration to a greater degree.

I know that content and gear itemization will expand with time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Sinbad]

I realize it has been a while since anyone has replied to this thread, but I feel strongly about this so I want to have my say.

I am a guild leader in EQ2 and I have a level 38 character, but I became one of my guild's leaders because the original leaders all three quit playing when they got to or close to level 50. They got bored with the game and switched to another game. I got that straight from the sister of one of the leaders and she quit and went with them.

Personally, I think that the major problem with EQ2 is that SoE has continuously shifted their focus to try to force people to craft whether they want to or not and to make things better for crafters without considering the impact on adventurers. In many ways they have really made it difficult, if not impossible, to survive in the game without crafting. Quite frankly, I find crafting boring and an sure ticket to repetitive motion injury. There have been a number of improvements in the game, but overall it has gone down hill and seems to be continuing to go down hill in quality because it is not balanced instead of favoring one group over another. They really should change the name to EverCraft if they keep it the way they are going.

There are also way too many people on the servers who treat the game as a JOB instead of as a game. With people like that in the game, how can the community spirit NOT suffer? The members in my guild play the game to have fun and enjoy the game and many of them played EQ, so we have a blast most of the time, but many of us still object to the direction in which SoE is taking the game.

If SoE continues to ruin the game in the ways that they have from January til now, I will also be leaving. If I can, I will take the entire guild with me when I go.