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Unread 02-27-2008, 01:39 PM
Zoltaroth-SOE Zoltaroth-SOE is offline
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Default GU43 UI Changes

+ G15 Support (I will let Rothgar talk about this since it is his baby)
+ New DynamicData: [added for G15 support but can be used else where]
* Spell reuse timers and names are now available in dynamic data, from your hotkey bars

* DynamicData.SpellInfo.Bank_X.Key_X.Name – Name of spell or macro

* DynamicData.SpellInfo.Bank_X.Key_X.ReuseText – Reuse time formatted “5 minutes 6 Seconds” if (cl_g15_short_units is 0 ) “5 m 6 s” otherwise

* DynamicData.SpellInfo.Bank_X.Key_X.ReuseSec – Reuse time in seconds

Example of my custom G15 Page for spell reuse:

<Page BackgroundColor="#333333" BackgroundOpacity="1.000" Location="9,312" Name="Reuse" ScrollExtent="160,43" Size="160,43">
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_4.Key_10.Name" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Name="SpellLabel" ScrollExtent="86,14" Size="86,14" TextSize="1">Bank 1 Key 1</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_4.Key_10.ReuseText" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="84,0" Name="SpellValue" ScrollExtent="73,14" Size="73,14" TextSize="1">1000</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_4.Key_1.Name" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="0,9" Name="SpellLabel" ScrollExtent="86,14" Size="86,14" TextSize="1">Bank 1 Key 3</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_4.Key_1.ReuseText" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="84,9" Name="SpellValue" ScrollExtent="73,14" Size="73,14" TextSize="1">1000</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_5.Key_12.Name" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="0,18" Name="SpellLabel" ScrollExtent="86,14" Size="86,14" TextSize="1">Bank 3 Key 3</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_5.Key_12.ReuseText" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="84,18" Name="SpellValue" ScrollExtent="73,14" Size="73,14" TextSize="1">1000</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_4.Key_7.Name" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="0,27" Name="SpellLabel" ScrollExtent="86,14" Size="86,14" TextSize="1">Bank 10 Key 12</Text>
<Text AbsorbsInput="false" DynamicData="/GameData.SpellInfo.Bank_4.Key_7.ReuseText" Font="/TextStyles.Small.SmallStyle" Location="84,27" Name="SpellValue" ScrollExtent="73,14" Size="73,14" TextSize="1">1000</Text>
</Page>
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  #2  
Unread 02-27-2008, 01:48 PM
gm9 gm9 is offline
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Thanks, you can upload your mod to the download sections.

Since you already have cl_g15_short_units, maybe we could get the same for use in the UI, eg on the maintained window, either as a general parameter or as a parameter of the UI element or even as a DD filter?
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Unread 03-06-2008, 10:09 AM
lordebon lordebon is offline
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Default Request for NBG loot window changes

Sorry guys but I gotta call you out on the whole NBG / loot window changes.

You guys generally do great work but this just needs some serious change... in my opinion its actually made it more possible for someone to take loot they don't "Need" by simply hitting that button when everyone is properly hitting "Greed" -- at least before on a "FFA" call everyone would still roll.

Proposed changes that would make the NBG system really shine in my eyes:

First -- when using round-robin, coin that is split amongst the group is counting as a persons turn, which is completely unacceptable.

Second -- There absolutely needs to be an option to allow "No-Trades" to default to NBG and override any round-robbin settings.

Third -- The "Need" option should only be usable when the person can physically use the item. In other words, "Need" should only be clickable if:
a) It's a piece of armor their class can use (don't need to check level, just class)
b) It's a spell/ability they can physically scribe (this can extend to recipe books as well as adept 1s and masters)
c) It is a quest update for a quest that they currently have
d) It is a quest starter for a quest they do NOT have (but if it is not repeatable, then they cannot "Need" it if they have it completed. If its repeatable they can "Need" it again if they've finished it then)
e) It is an item that, for whatever reason (epic update, whatever) is visible to them but not to others.
In all other circumstances (ie trash loot like guild status items and such) "Need" would be grayed out and you would only be able to "Greed" on it.

Fourth -- Opening a corpse with leader-only loot that contains an item a member of the group needs SHOULD ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH NOT vanish the corpse. Instead the leader should see the item but only have options to assign it to the person that can "see" and use the item. This is an issue with warden mythical epic updates for one thing, and possibly others.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 10:44 AM
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Post known issue

Usable items' reuse timer cannot display correctly on hotbar window.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 11:37 AM
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Default General Loot Changes

Not sure why this post was moved from Dev Shack (edit: and back), but...

I was speaking to the new Tech Director at SOE about these same issues.

Round-Robin: Coin should only count as a person's turn if auto-split is off and that person gets ALL coin from a chest/corpse.

No-Trades: When a player has the option to loot no-trades they should ALWAYS see a loot window AND confirmation dialog, regardless of rairity, quest starter, or round-robin settings. NBG on no-trades for the loot window is preferable to lotto, but silent round-robin is completely unacceptable. It is NEVER ok to silently award any no-trade item. See notes on "Smart Offers" below.

Corpse Loot: Corpses should NEVER poof until completely emptied. There is at least 1 spell line currently in-game who's effect depends on nearby corpse count and you may want to introduce other corpse related abilities later "Annimate Dead" for example.

Smart Offers: Lordebon covered this in his Thrid point but I think it can have more general application. I'd love to see elligability code applied to the list of items offered to a player in all loot scenarios. Lordebon's list is great for NBG. I'd apply the following from his list to Lotto and Round-robin... c, d, e. The idea here is to reduce the amount of pointless window spam, but you need to be careful not to prevent looting stuff that might for instance be melted down by a transmutter or sold for cash.

Loot Visibility: There should be a Game Option to hide/show items you are not eligable to loot. There are cases where I want to see what's in a chest even if I personally can't loot it. In these cases, those items need to be clearly differentiated from items I can loot. Could be as simple as a red box around the icon. This also applies to leader-assigned loot, leaders should see an obvious indicator that they personally are not elligable to loot an item in the list.

Leader Assigned: Deffinetly would be nice to have the assignment list filtered based on elligability. If a Conjuror epic quest updater drops, selecting that item should filter the group/raid list to just the conjurors.

Last edited by Zonx : 03-06-2008 at 11:40 AM.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 12:00 PM
gm9 gm9 is offline
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I'll agree with all that lordebon posted - with Zonx' qualification on coin.

Corpses are already persistant in instances, but making them persistant in overland zones would probably be a huge strain on the server. Some might never ever be looted and CL will be littered with dead orcs.

On "smart offers", I don't think it has reason to exist outside of NBG. If your group does non-NBG round robin or lotto, that means you consider all loot as FFA and therefore per se you are eligible for everything.

On loot visibility, I don't think I would ever want to hide loot I'm not eligible to loot. Marking items your class cannot use is not a bad idea however.

Leader assigned list filters would be great to easy the pain of finding someone on that list. However, you need to be able to turn it off if you want to assign it to a transmuter or someone who distributes no-trade after the raid.

PS: Zonx, the move/move back was because the OP was about G15 only and it might have been better to start a new thread on the loot window (which might start a huge discussion judging from what I saw on other sites), but after Chrislau's post I changed my mind, might as well make this a general feedback thread...

EDIT to add: Any of the SOE devs feel free to drop me a PM if you have any preferences on how this part of the forum is run - it is after all mainly supposed to be useful to you.
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Last edited by gm9 : 03-06-2008 at 12:29 PM. Reason: added last para
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Unread 03-06-2008, 12:13 PM
Zoltaroth-SOE Zoltaroth-SOE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrislau View Post
Usable items' reuse timer cannot display correctly on hotbar window.
I'll take a look at this today I have a feeling it's related to these being a different type of hotkey button.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 01:17 PM
Zoltaroth-SOE Zoltaroth-SOE is offline
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Checked in a fix for items on hotbars today should be in the next GU.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 01:54 PM
lordebon lordebon is offline
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I disagree with corpses never "disappearing".

Corpses need to poof. Epic corpses last a long time and thats fine with me but they should never poof _EARLY_. Thats what happened last night, where the epic mob's corpse disappeared in about 3 minutes instead of sticking around for the full epic duration. I still don't know why that happened.

And the reason I posted here was it was the best forum I could think of, and since the thread was titled GU43 UI changes (even if the initial content was more specific to the keyboard) my comments on, ui changes, fit in with the title. That and I can't start threads in this forum

Zonx pretty well restated my intention, with the exception of corpses.

The only change I'd make regarding corpse poofs (besides fixing whatever caused it to poof early, GRR!) would be that epic mob corpses do NOT poof until their timer is up. IE that way you can loot whatever is on them without them going poof until the timer is up. Absolutely no change needed to spells because the same # of corpses will be there as before for those raids that didn't touch corpses, only now not even the little 'junk' loot is wasted.


Oh one last thing -- I believe Vanguard has the code for NBG that depends on classes (I played it back when it came out and I recall it having that) so maybe ask them how they do it? hehe =)
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Unread 03-06-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordebon View Post
Oh one last thing -- I believe Vanguard has the code for NBG that depends on classes (I played it back when it came out and I recall it having that) so maybe ask them how they do it? hehe =)

OK, not an Interface author, or a Dev, but had to address this statement Lordebon. Vanguard had many good things that could have been implemented into EQ2. Instant mail, the NBG loot styles, and a few others that come to mind, but I won't mention.

I played VG thru beta and well into it's short lifespan before it became SOE property. When that day occurred I had hopes that some of the things could be merged to make both games better. Regrettably nothing of the sort has happened, nor do I foresee it happening.

You all do such great work here, and the same work was done on the VG interfaces, and may still be. I think it's grand that Zoltaroth talks to you guys, I hope he continues, but asking for the impossible is beyond his scope.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 04:25 PM
lordebon lordebon is offline
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Ummm, didn't G15 support come from one of the devs (can't remember if it was Zoltaroth or Rothgar) asking a Dev from another SOE game about it? Thus why wouldn't they be able to ask a VG Dev since its SOE property now?
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Unread 03-06-2008, 05:19 PM
SOE-Rothgar SOE-Rothgar is offline
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Making the assumption that we didn't enforce "Need" because we didn't know how to is pretty crazy.

We actually had a big meeting about NBG loot options and during the meeting the majority of the attendees didn't feel it was up to the game to decide who needs something and who doesn't.

Maybe your group decides that its ok to press "Need" if you can use it for an alt. Or maybe the group says its ok for transmuters to press "Need" and then /random roll on the transmuted product. There could be many other situations I'm not thinking of, so why should the game enforce its own idea of Need on the players?

If you think you are grouping with dishonest people that won't make proper use of the NBG mechanic, then set the loot options to lotto and be done with it.

As far as the other complaints/ideas for loot options, I'm listening to what everyone has to say. I knew there would be different opinions on how we should handle No-Trade items even if they fall below the loot tier. I also assumed there would be feedback on whether or not we should pop a no-trade confirmation during round-robin assignment. My original proposal for these loot options actually included a custom No-Trade confirmation window that showed the item icon and name that you could mouse-over for the description. The existing no-trade confirmation isn't very informative, but is ok when the item is listed in the loot window.

We can easily tweak these settings for the next Game Update, I just want to see how people respond to it and make the right judgment call instead of changing 2-3 times.

As far as leader loot filtering by who can use an item, it already does this for many epic items. As a raid leader myself, I've seen it first-hand in zones like Protector's Realm where the final mob drops the wizzy epic update.

So if there are specific items that aren't behaving like this, let me know which ones because the bug may be with the item itself and not with the loot window.

One option I thought of was to have the chest revert to FFA after the NBG lotto is complete. So any items that get declined could be picked up by anyone. Also, if we implement a No-Trade confirmation for round-robin items. What happens if they decline? Currently, if you loot the chest, it would just offer it to the same person who was in line for loot. So we'd need to implement something like this FFA idea.

Keep in mind that one of our goals is to also design a system thats easy to understand for new players as well as seasoned vets. So adding 50-bazillion new options to cover every permutation of loot you could want isn't the best idea either.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 05:36 PM
gm9 gm9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOE-Rothgar View Post
We actually had a big meeting about NBG loot options and during the meeting the majority of the attendees didn't feel it was up to the game to decide who needs something and who doesn't.
I think most of the players probably thought the opposite, because for NBG with honest people none of the new options were needed, that has always work well so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOE-Rothgar View Post
One option I thought of was to have the chest revert to FFA after the NBG lotto is complete.
Just consider that NBG might fail in the first round because someone's inventory was full. It should probably do another NBG round after the packrat emptied their inv.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOE-Rothgar View Post
So any items that get declined could be picked up by anyone. Also, if we implement a No-Trade confirmation for round-robin items. What happens if they decline? Currently, if you loot the chest, it would just offer it to the same person who was in line for loot. So we'd need to implement something like this FFA idea.
Actually if it's declined in round robin you might want to skip to a NBG round instead of FFA, because if someone declines that usually means someone else has a need.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 07:16 PM
lordebon lordebon is offline
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See I think of it the other way... I'd use NBG to enforce whether or not it could be used.

And if it is going to an Alt or something... then its tradeable anyway and can be arranged after the roll. No need to be able to "Need" it then.

As it stands now, unscrupulous players can "Need" the final box of a zone, which is generally the best box, and even if the item was "FFA" they'll get away with it, or they may get away with it if someone else actually "Needed" the item.

By enforcing Needs you prevent that from happening. and "Greed" is essentially lotto.

By having to go to lotto an unscrupulous player still has a chance at an item over a player than can actually use and need it, if the "Need" system operated the other way.

Oh, and I wasn't trying to say you didn't know how to, was just pointing out that VG is where I saw it done the way I wanted it to be done here, in terms of "Needing" hehe.

And yeah, PR is what I was talking about too with Imzok's Revenge. He drops the warden epic update as well but if anyone but a warden cracks open the chest he poofs, which is not cool hehehehe. That and there was some other bug going on where the corpse actually disappeared early for some reason ((but that I think the quest just needs to be designed to give the item directly as a 'reward' on detecting you killing him))
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Unread 03-06-2008, 08:02 PM
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There's gonna always be dishonest people in any situation. You avoid them best you can, but stuff happens

I think the NBG system is nice, it avoids the whole situation of the "oops, I didn't know no one needed it, can I reroll?"

Have a little communication in grouping, and this system makes things work much faster.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 08:18 PM
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I just checked in a fix so that all quest items get promoted to the group loot method and will not be sent via round-robin. This will affect any item that gives a quest or updates a quest.

As far as the NBG debate goes... the intent of the feature was not to police the looting system. It was done to make grouping easier. Most groups go like this.

Chest drops.
Ooh, that sword is pretty nice, does anyone need it?
2 people say nope.
wait a few secs.
1 person says "dec"
wait a few secs
1 person says "checking"
the lotto timer expires
someone clicks it again
someone says "so FFA?"
2 people say "sure"
still no answer from 1 or 2 people, so you aren't sure what to click.
at this point you either hit lotto and hope no one needed it, or you decline, and lose the FFA opportunity because you were being nice.

All of this took about 1 minute to resolve and happens on almost every chest.

Under the new system here's how it works:

item drops
everyone clicks need or greed based on whether they need it or not, no discusson
Timer ends or lotto runs after everyone submits

Done in 15-30 seconds, no discussion. The group has already moved on to the next mob.

This is what NBG was intended to do, not keep unscrupulous players from taking look from people.

You can easily see if a person clicks need or greed in the chat window. This accountability is enough to keep most people in line.

What I'd like to see is this discussion go on hold until people actually report problems with people taking their loot. Right now its all speculative argument which we could debate until the cows come home.

It was the same way with appearance slots everyone screamed that the sky was falling because tanks were going to be running around in robes. This feature has been out for quite awhile now, and I rarely see this happen and I never hear anyone complain about it.

So lets see what happens.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 09:09 PM
lordebon lordebon is offline
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Hooray! Thank you very much for the fix on quest items. I'd still like no-trades to at least have a checkbox option to default them to lotto though -- that way if you want them to be RR'd you can but if you want them to be rolled on you can do that as well =)

And yeah, NBG does cutdown on some of the sitting around exactly like you say =) But I still think that "Need" should only be enabled for gear (armor / weapons) and abilities (spells and recipe books) and disabled by default for junk loot / non-equipable stuff.

Any chance I could convince you to add that in?

((BTW, I really appreciate your posting here and talking about your reasoning. You go well and above the call of duty in answering to pests like me ))
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Unread 03-07-2008, 12:10 AM
Landiin Landiin is offline
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I like the round robin and NBG system but ever group I make people request lotto be turned on if not already. The reason is in the end every one starts hitting need in the NBG system and the round robin is like playing Russian roulette with items people need.

Like any new system it'll take time for people to catch on and the always on need clickers will be known. So IMHO the NBG system will replace the lotto sytem as for the round robin we'll see, I personally like the round robin system but I think its to chancy for most people.

I would like to see a Master Looter system put in to place. Where all loot is sent to a bank like thing and at the end it is all split up. Granted a system like this would only be used by guild groups or close friends but would make grouping and dungeon crawls a lot faster, so we could go on to the next one I think it would also become the loot system used for raids as you wouldn't have to bother with loot until after the raid was over.
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Unread 03-07-2008, 03:49 AM
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To clarify one of my earlier points...

I was not saying corpses should never poof, rather that they shouldn't poof early simply because they or the chest they dropped was clicked. If they have any body loot at all, they should remain for the entire rot duration unless the loot is actually taken.

Or to put it another way... clicking a corpse to see what's on it, then declining, should have zero effect on the corpse rot timer.

On Smart Offers... adding a No-Trade dialog to quest items is far preferable to silent awards, but I'd still love to see a filter option for non-repeateables I currently have or have already completed. Unless the item is worth meaningful coin for the tier, I rarely want to see those offers.
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